At 61 years old, Japanese game developer Hideo Kojima is far from retirement. Instead, the mastermind behind “Death Stranding” and “Metal Gear Solid” is charting a course that will expand his reach beyond the gaming world and into Hollywood as he signs with talent agency WME.
Ahead of his appearance at the Tokyo Game Show this weekend, Kojima spoke with Variety about selecting WME as his liaison in the world of TV and film, his plans for upcoming video games “Death Stranding 2,” “Physint” and Jordan Peele collaboration “OD,” as well as an update on the “Death Stranding” movie adaptation and his insistence on remaining an indie game developer at Kojima Productions.
You’ve chosen to sign with WME to have a more direct relationship with Hollywood. What prompted this decision at this stage in your career and where do you see things going from here?
I made games at Konami for 30 years. Though I was offered a lot of work outside of the company to film commercials or films or write scripts, I couldn’t do any of them because I was employed at Konami, and I was a board member as well. Also, the games that I made were not my IP; they belonged to the company. At the end of 2015, I went independent. Because I love movies, I could have gone on to shoot movies or commercials. But for the first phase, I thought about the video game fans all across the world who were waiting for my next new game, so I decided to create a video game first. I regard myself as indies, and therefore we are not funded by anyone. We do partner with first parties but only in the position as an indie company. We created our first IP, “Death Stranding.” Since this is our own IP, we have released it on multiple platforms and hardware.
In preparation of creating “Death Stranding,” we had to get an office space, gather staff, and find a game engine. But “Death Stranding” as a standalone title is not enough to spread and establish the IP, so we are currently making a sequel. So, this is the first phase: to establish “Death Stranding” within the games category and expand on global platforms, like Apple and PC and Sony. And from there, we are making a sequel. This part is not necessarily difficult.
At the same time, I wanted to do something new that wasn’t “Death Stranding,” so I teamed up with Microsoft to create “OD.” This is a game, but it’s a game like no other. I can’t go into too much detail, and it’s also hard to explain, but it’s a bit risky and a new challenge for me within the realm of games. There is also another project, “Physint,” an espionage game, but it’s still in the early concept stage. So first, I created a game IP as an indie company. This part is important, because no one believes me when I tell them I’m indies!
And now, to strengthen our IP, we’re doing a sequel, and this is a game. And we’ll continue to add more to various platforms. What comes next are different forms of media: movies, anime, TV dramas, etc. Basically, expanding the game IP to other media. That’s the second phase. That’s what we’re aiming for next. I created Kojima Productions under the scope of “digital entertainment,” but I don’t think it necessarily has to be a video game. We could create a new IP from a game, or an anime, or a film, or something totally different. Anything is possible, and that’s the third phase.
Back in the day, movies and games were two different worlds. It was like analog vs digital. It didn’t mix well, like oil and water. Nowadays, movies are also digital, like being shot on digital cameras instead of film. The pre-production and post-production phases are digital, too. It’s even streamed digitally. There seems to be more understanding in the conversations I have with people in the filmmaking industry. That wasn’t always the case. Now, there are movies that use Unreal Engine to create their backgrounds and environments. They also use performance capture [PCap] like we do, so the technology is almost the same up to a certain point.
The same goes for VFX. Pixar movies, for example, are entirely digital, so their process is halfway the same as ours. It’s just a matter of whether it becomes a two-hour movie, a tv drama, or an interactive video game in the end. That’s the only difference, so it’s very close. In “Death Stranding,” for instance, we had Hollywood actors star in that. So, Hollywood actors can be in games, and game actors can be in movies; I think it can work in either direction more freely.
For the third phase, I would like to work with talented people from around the world and create something new, with “digital” being the keyword. It could be a movie, a game, or something else entirely. I can’t die until then! I don’t think I’m trying to do anything too out of the ordinary!
Hideo Kojima/Picture by MJ KIM
MJ KIM
You’re currently at work on the “Death Stranding” movie. What are the biggest differences you’ve noticed between the video game industry and Hollywood during this project?
I started to notice it before we started working on the movie. There was clearly a wall between a movie person and a game person, maybe 20 or so years ago. There’s one big change that occurred, actually. It’s not just in Hollywood, but the people I meet across the world – directors, actors, producers, musicians, artists – almost all of them grew up with videos games. So, they recognize me. People in the movie or music industry love games, because they grew up with it, and I was really surprised by that. They may be filming movies, but they actually love games. I know people who are late to their shoot because they were playing games at home.
So, I tell those people, “Then you should make games!” But they all say, “I’d like to, but I don’t know how” and say they can’t do it. So, I thought, then why not do it together? And that’s how I came to partner with Jordan Peele to make a game together. There are more and more people like that. Even though they may be making movies, many of them are really interested in games. Me on the other hand, I’m making games, but I’m interested in movies. So, it’s not like how it used to be, when people would look down on me and say, “Oh, you make games.” There are very few people like that now. Not many people use actors in their games. Even though such a collaboration is possible, it hasn’t caught on yet. So, I would like to continue doing that to make it more popular and commonplace.
When you think about it, everyone grew up in a digital world. We’ve all watched movies and dramas, listened to music, and played games, so why can’t creators create movies, and dramas, music, and games? You can do it since it’s all digital. It’s not a closed off world. Right now, games have their place like consoles and movies have theirs like cinemas, but in the end, it’s all going to be online, including where big announcements are made, so I think the various industries are going to be all the more closer in the future.
Where is the “Death Stranding” movie currently in the production process? Are you directing the film yourself?
I have only ever thought of “Death Stranding” as a game. People tell me it feels like a movie, but I made it as a game – the direction, the settings, the story. So, I don’t intend to look back at it and try to see it from a movie perspective. Those works are my babies, and I love movies, so I want it to be something that movie fans will really enjoy! I’ll supervise the plot and help them make it, but I won’t direct it. I can’t right now with three on-going projects! I’ll help by communicating with a director I really trust. Maybe once I’m in the third phase after “Physint,” I might be directing a movie, or Kojima Productions maybe making a movie. Who knows!
Lately, there are many film studios that are creating games, many of them in the horror genre. I think that’s natural, and the opposite is possible in that a game studio could make movies if they wanted. It’s going to be the age of digital entertainment. It won’t be like expansions onto multiple platforms or a simple game-to-film or film-to-game adaptation like before. There are several “Death Stranding” adaptation projects currently underway, but there is a different story I’ve written that’s intended for a movie. But I don’t have the time to direct it, so I won’t. Which is kind of like a test for the third phase. I’m in the second phase now and expanding the IP I made in all sorts of directions, but my other project, “Physint,” is like the gateway into the third phase. I’m trying to make it with people in filmmaking and industries outside of games. So, we may do a movie adaptation at the same time, but we will see. The assets are digital and can be used either way.
Why did you choose to sign with WME over other Hollywood agencies?
Well, there are many big agencies out there. I’ve met many people over the years, but it’s important to me that I work with people who understand games and understand me. I also need people who can basically traffic control all that I do. Until now, I’ve been personally handling exchanges with all the actors that wanted to work together, but it has become difficult to manage on my own. And with all the offers I receive, the most important thing is knowing who to trust. WME created a whole team for me, and they understand me the most. I feel a lot of love from them. They are very powerful within the industry as well, of course. I don’t intend to make myself 10 times busier than I am already. I just want to be able to do everything that I want to do in my remaining lifetime without wasting time. I can also learn more about what the world is demanding, so it’s really great.
What does your timeline look like for getting these next games out, and producing the “Death Stranding” movie?
I have a personal, ideal timeline. But “Physint” will take some time to complete, and I also have a company and staff to look after. There is an indie studio called Kojima Productions in Japan. Though we may be indies, we can make games or even movies. From Japan to the world. That’s what I want to prove first. But the rest of Japan doesn’t necessarily feel that. The bigger companies feel like the safer bet. Since we have made a game, and we own the IP, we are free to expand it as we like. So, the third phase is movies and anime, and it’ll be a new start. The possibilities are still endless with games. You can still make something completely new. Technology continues to advance, and the things you couldn’t do yesterday you can do today. That’s what makes it fun. I think in the future, there will be many things that are like a hybrid of movies and games. But of course, the business side of things are also important, so you have to time it right. I don’t want to be in the red, but I don’t concentrate on making big profits; I just want to be the first one to do something.
You’re working with Jordan Peele for your new game “OD.” How did that talent relationship come about?
I was a fan of Jordan, and I went to go see “Nope.” At the time, I was doing a podcast on Spotify. I did an episode on “Nope” and found out that Jordan Peele was a fan of mine. So, we set up a Zoom call! He’s younger than me, so we’re not the same generation, but after just five minutes of chatting, he felt like a childhood friend. This happens quite often actually when the person’s thought process or brain structure is similar to mine. But anyways, we decided to meet in Los Angeles. After several meetings in L.A., we were talking about the projects each of us were working on. I explained the concept of “OD” to him, and he was really interested in it, so I asked him to join me.
Based on that relationship, are you considering Jordan Peele to direct the “Death Stranding” movie?
It’s not only Jordan, but I have a close relationship with directors like Guillermo del Toro, Nicolas Winding Refn and George Miller – who appear in “Death Stranding” – and we always talk about doing something together. Right now, movies and games are two different branches, but pretty soon, it will be very similar. So, it’s not about making a video game out of “Nope” or having Jordan adapt “Death Stranding” into a film. It’s about making something new together.
You’ve previously dissected American dystopian settings. What themes and topics are you interested in exploring in your work next?
I have a lot, but I can’t say! That would reveal too much. There’s a lot going on in the world right now: global warming, conflicts, pandemics, wealth gaps. In Japan, there’s the fear of earthquakes. It’s like Gotham City all over the world. In dark and difficult times, I want to touch on these kinds of social issues, but at the same time, I want to give hope. I think there’s a need for entertainment that gives you courage. I think that can be a game or a movie or anything else.
Is there anything else you want people to know about your career moving forward?
The world is connected via the Internet now, and there are platforms available for anyone who wants to make an announcement and tools for anyone who wants to use them. Times have most definitely changed. You don’t have to belong to an organization or study under a master for 10 to 20 years. It’s not like that anymore. You have the tools and the means and the comrades to help you, so I think you should create a lot of things and share them with the world.
It wasn’t like that in my time. You had to join a company first. But I want the younger generation to know that that isn’t the case anymore. It’s like the start-up companies that young people have built; don’t hesitate to get up and make something. I think YouTubers are kind of like that. Business is important, too, but it has become much easier for indies to create and present to the world, so eventually the business side of things will fall in line. I would say that Kojima Productions is not fully successful yet, but I don’t intend to shut it down. That’s why I’m making “Death Stranding 2” and other new games, delving into movies and anime, and doing my second phase. I hope that there will be more and more independent creators and studios in the future.
If there is one thing I’ll take away from this interview, it’s that you are an indie developer.
We are indies! Really! We never know when we’ll close. We are not backed by anyone. We do everything on our own, from creating concepts to production and even promotion and marketing. I think there are many studios like us. We can’t do mass production, so we won’t go public. I’m getting quite old, and it’s not always easy. But I’m creating things because I want to. I’m running a business so that I can keep creating. It’s not because I want to do business. I didn’t necessarily want to make my own studio. I went independent so I can make what I want to make.
People ask me why I continue to work instead of retiring. I see that there are many fans all over the world, and many of them tell me that games like “Metal Gear” changed their lives. I didn’t think that I had been of any use. I was just a geek who was making games. But I started to think that perhaps I was making some difference in the world. I’ve had people who are ill reach out to me, and that makes me want to spend the rest of my life making things for people like that. I’m not a politician or anyone in a position to make any changes, but I want to support people with my work. Anything that I can do for those people, I want to do it.
This interview was conducted via a translator between Kojima and Variety. The interview has been edited and condensed.
